From the House, Minute No. 35, Thursday 12 August 2004

- Speaker welcomed the Swedish ambassador who visited the House.

- Move for the House to go over a decision they passed the day before for the House adopt a new pension scheme.

- Move for all members and staff to chose whether to remain with the old pension or to join the new scheme.

- A vast difference in the salary of a senior education officer and that of a member of parliament.

Question Time

- Government 's financial contribution to private schools.

- Wanted to know if it was a royal command for $50,000 to be paid to 'Unuaki 'o Tonga.

- Concern over a prisoner who was badly injured in a road accident in Vava'u.

- The House agreed for members to adopt the new pension scheme.

Speaker - Welcomed the Swedish Ambassador to the House, he said that the ambassador was there to observe the proceedings of the House.

He said that a Bill for the pension of the members of the House had been presented to the House and it would be debated in the Committee.

Minister of Police - moved for a proposal from the Law Committee to be read in the Whole House Committee later.

Speaker - called on the clerk to read the letter from the Law Committee.

Clerk - read a letter that was addressed to the Speaker of the House. It said that the Law Committee had completed the task of assessing the pension of the members of the House. Under the sub-title Option 5 it outlined its basic proposal.

Minister of Police - moved for the letter to be tabled into Committee for debate.

Dr Feleti Sevele - queried the letter with Option 5. He said that three options were presented to the House the day before, and he wondered how many more options to come.

Minister of Police - said that Option 5 was in response to a request by the member for the committee to look at the 30% that they proposed.

Governor of Ha'apai - wondered if the task of assessing the pension of the House should have been a task for the Law Committee or more appropriately for the Finance Committee.

Speaker - said that the task was for the Finance Committee but it was later given to the Law Committee for a final look and to present to the House.

Minister of Health - said that the day before the House approved the new approach for members to contribute to their Retirement Benefit. He said that they also agreed that members who have not been in the House for 15 years or more would forfeit their entitlement under the old system and start anew with the new contributing system. He said that those who have been in the House for 15 years, such as 'Akilisi Pohiva were to be paid a Transfer Value of their entitlement during the past 15 years.

He said that although the House had passed all these the day before but he was proposing for the House to go back and reconsider their decision.

He proposed for members and staff of the House who have been in the House for 12, 13, and 14 years to be given the privilege to choose whether to stay with the old system until the completion of their 15 years of service, or to forfeit all those years of work and start anew. He wondered what would happen to members such as the Ha'apai No. 2 Nobles Representative who had been in the House 15 years this year.

He moved for the House to amend the decision they passed the previous day.

Minister of Police - said that he appreciated the view expressed by the Minister of Health but he was concerned that once they move the cut off date from 15 years they have to give everyone the privilege to choose. He said that the Ha'apai No. 2 Nobles Representative, Noble Tu'iha'angana, was eligible under the law to be paid a Transfer Value of his entitlement during the past 15 years.

Minister of Health - clarified his proposal that he wanted to give members an option. He said that Noble Tu'iha'angana had been in the House for 12 years, and he should be given the privilege to choose whether to forfeit his 15 years entitlement and accept the new policy or to take the risk of running in the coming election and secure another three-year term in the House, which would qualify him for a Transfer Value of his 15 years entitlement.

Noble Nuku - said that under Clause 20 of the Constitution a new law could not take away the privileges that have been allocated under older legislation. He wanted to know if the old and this new legislations clashed.

Minister of Labour - expressed his support for the point that the Minister of Health had just raised. He said that the proposed rate of contribution proposed by the Bill was too high, 15% between one and nine years of service, and 20% between 10 and 15 years of service.

Fineasi Funaki - reminded members that what the Minister of Labour was talking about was about things that they had voted on and passed the day before.

Minister of Justice - said that taking into consideration what the Minister of Health and Noble Nuku had raised, he proposed that the fairest way to deal with the issue of the pension for members and staff of the House was for members and staff to be given the right to chose whether to be part of the old or the new scheme.

Dr Feleti Sevele - supported the proposal made by the Minister of Justice, for the incumbent staff and members to make a choice, but for new staff and members to be part of the new scheme.

Chairman - called for votes on giving members the right to select whether to stay with the old scheme or to go with the new one. It was carried 24-0.

Deputy Prime Minister - he raised a question that since the House had opted for the new pension scheme, he wanted to know if it had been taken into consideration the duration of service by some members. He said that with the public service when it was decided to adopt the new pension scheme, the duration of service was also taken into consideration.

'Akilisi Pohiva - moved for the House to accept Option 1 and not Option 5.

Minister of Police - said that under Option 1 the pension of a member of parliament was calculated based on a rate of 7.5% pa and member who have been in the House for 15 years but have agreed to change over to the new Pension scheme would be paid $1,500 per annum and therefore would be given $22,500 and he felt that if the House would adopt that rate it would be a move backward.

He said that the House can't adopt the same approach as it has been done in the Public Service, because a public servant could have been in service for 50 years, whereas in the House a member would be lucky to be there for 15 years.

He said that the rate of 15% was realistic and the Law Committee also took into consideration the future of the House, and that an attractive pension scheme would attract good members into the House.

'Akilisi Pohiva - wanted to support his motion for the House to adopt Option 1 because it was base on the relativity of salaries in the country. He said that when he entered the House in 1987 his salary as a senior education officer was over $7,000 per annum, but when he got into the House his full salary was more than $20,000, four times more than what he was earning in the Ministry of Education. He said that when they entered the House in 1987 they managed to cut the House's allocation for salaries from $2.1 million to $900,000 per annum.

Governor of Ha'apai - said that the basic salaries of members remained but what was cut was their allowances.

'Akilisi Pohiva - said that the ideal situation was for some one else to decide for them their salaries and their pension because it was only natural that they would like to have more but he moved for votes on his motion for the House to adopt Option 1.

Trevor Guttenbeil - pointed out that at the beginning of the proceeding, option 5 was presented to the House for their deliberation, so he proposed that they should make a decision on Option 5.

'Uliti Uata - expressed his support for the new scheme for members to at least make a contribution. Under the existing system only government contributed to the pension scheme. He proposed for the House to accept the new system, then ask government to set aside a lump sum of money in next year's budget to settle the entitlement of members in the old system. He believed that that would be a fair way of dealing with the issue.

Chairman - called for members to focus their debate on Option 5 that was presented by the Law Committee.

Noble Fakatulolo - reminded the House that yesterday they voted and passed Option 3, which indicated for the House to contribute 30% toward the new pension scheme. He said that the House should debate on Option 3.

Chairman - said that the Law Committee returned with a new proposal, Option 5.

Dr Feleti Sevele - he said that if the pension of a member who has been in the House for 15 years was calculated based on the salary that he was earning during the past two years, he would have received $42,000. He proposed that for the new scheme they should make sure the pension that a member would earn should be about the same or slightly more so he supported Option 5 and for a member to contribute 10% and the House 15%.

Minister of Police - pointed out that the Law Committee has twice been working on the figures and twice the House has changed. He said that what has been proposed would mean that at the end of a service of 15 years a member would only get $3000 more than what he is getting now. He said that 70% of members of the House would not be in the House for 15 years. He insisted that Option 5 was a way forward to attract bright young people to become members of parliament.

Chairman - Called for vote on the motion to amend Option 5 for member to contribute 10% and for the House to contribute 15% instead of 20%. It was rejected 12-4. For it were 'Akilisi Pohiva, Dr Feleti Sevele, 'Isilelli Pulu, and the Governor of Vava'u.

After Lunch it was question time.

Speaker - said that the questions for the Prime Minister to be postponed because he was sick. He called on 'Etuate Lavulavu to proceed.

'Etuate Lavulavu - wanted to know how much of the tax payers money had government contributed toward privately owned schools.

Minister of Finance - said that the total amount that has been given to the private school between 1999-2000 and 2003-04 was, 'Atenisi - $41,000; Free Wesleyan Church, $1.59 million; Catholic Church, $958,000; Church of Tonga, $182,000; Seventh Day Adventist, $287,000; Anglican Church, $214,000; USP, $2.93 million; 'Unuaki 'o Tonga, $50,000; Ocean of Light $8,900; Church of the Latter Days Saints $0; and other churches $177,000. He said that government donated a total of $6.5 million to private schools.

'Etuate Lavulavu - asked the Minister of Labour why Tonga was not ordering its fuel straight from the main source of supply to the region rather then ordering it from Fiji?

Minister of Labour - said that the reason was because Tonga's need was too small, not big enough for a big oil tanker to come straight from the supplier to Tonga.

'Akilisi Pohiva - pointed out that government had planned to establish a Tank Farm and to import a big volume of oil. He wanted to know what has happened to the company Tonga Oil which government granted $300,000.

Minister of Labour - said that Tonga Oil has been closed down.

'Akilisi Pohiva - wanted to know if it was a Cabinet decision for the amount of $50,000 to be paid out to the 'Unuaki-'o-Tonga Institute. He wondered if it can happen that the money was allocated for the salaries of teachers, and he wondered if the decision to give this money to the 'Unuaki was supported by the Minister of Education. He wondered if it was a Royal Command for the $50,000 to be given to the 'Unuaki-'o-Tonga.

Minister of Finance - said that it was a Cabinet decision for the $50,000 to be given to the 'Unuaki and it came out of a Constituency vote of the Treasury. He said he could not answer the question if it was a Royal Command or not.

'Akilisi Pohiva - said that the Minister could have just said yes or no to the whether it was a Royal Command or not.

Sunia Fili - said that there were two animal pounds in 'Eua and both were unused and out of action. He asked the Minister of Police if these animal pounds should be allowed to be looked after and managed by District Officers on the island.

Minister of Police - said he did not understand what was the problem, because there was a desire by the people of 'Eua to have an animal pound, so New Zealand funded the construction of two, and while it was operating suddenly the district officer wanted the revenue to be paid to him and not to the government general revenue as it was indicated by the law. Since then the two animal pounds were left standing because to divert the revenue from government to the district officer it was needed to amend the law. He said that the district officer may look after the pounds but the revenue must come to government.

'Isilelli Pulu - said that there was a road accident in Vava'u on July 24, 2004 and a jailer and four prisoners were injured. He said that among the prisoners was Viliami Tapa'atoutai who broke six ribs and his collar bone and ended up at the intensive care unit at Ngu Hospital. He wanted an explanation from the Minister of Police about what had happened.

Minister of Police - said that a road accident took place at the intersection at the village of Mataika. A vehicle did not stop at a give-way sign and ran straight into the Prison's vehicle. He said that only Viliami was badly injured and a doctor from Tongatapu was flown over to Vava'u to treat the prisoners and according to report he was progressing well. He said that a court hearing was taking place in Vava'u and he had not heard about the outcome of the court hearing.

'Isileli Pulu - said that the family of the prisoner was looking after him in hospital and he wondered if the Ministry should pay an allowance for the family of the prisoner who were looking after him at the Ngu Hospital. He said that the prisoner was from Tongatapu but was transferred to Vava'u.

Minister of Police - said that it was not proper for the Ministry to pay for the allowance of the family of the prisoner to be in Vava'u, but at the same time the Ministry is responsible for the keeping of prisoners.

The Legislature dissolved into committee and the Chairman took his seat.

Chairman - called for vote on Option 5. It was carried 19-5. Against were 'Akilisi Pohiva, Dr Feleti Sevele, 'Isileli Pulu, 'Uliti Uata and the Governor of Vava'u.

He called for votes on the new pension scheme. It was carried 16-0.

The committee dissolved and the Speaker of the House took his chair. He called for the third reading of the new pension scheme in the House. It was carried 16-0.

'Akilisi Pohiva - asked the Speaker to try and encourage the Prime Minister to come to the House. He said that he has the most authority in government and it was important for him to hear views of the members on issues to help him make the right decision.

Speaker - reminded the House that the PM has been very busy and that he was sick.