House debates regulation for punishing Public Servants [1]
Friday, August 20, 2004 - 18:42. Updated on Monday, May 5, 2014 - 16:46.
The meaning of Point of Order.
Heads of Department have the right to scold public servants for minor offences.
If minor offence is committed in the outer islands does the offender need to be shipped to Nuku'alofa to be scolded?
Lack of authority for HOD would make it difficult for them to get their departments to work properly.
Cabinet Ministers are the judges for complaints in the Public Service Commission and also for appeals to Cabinet.
A new policy yet to be approved by Cabinet would give the Ministry the authority to force the two air operators to fly to the Niuas and 'Eua.
When People's Representative 'Isileli Pulu pointed out that the Prime Minister chairs the Civil Service Commission and was also chair of the Cabinet, and three members of the commission are Cabinet Ministers, the Deputy Prime Minister reminded the House that they were in the process of reform and things are in transition, he said that it was like a procession, a funeral procession, and would change later.
Minute No. 27, Thursday July 29.
Speaker ... said for the House to proceed with the agenda that had been distributed. He also asked that members who made an example of some things that happened in the past to support their debate, and draw on the most relevant points. He dissolved the legislature into the Whole House Committee.
The Acting Chairman of the whole House Committee Noble Tu'i'afitu took his Chair.
Chairman ... said that it was not too clear to him using Point of Order by members. He asked the Speaker to explain.
Minister of Police ... said that there has been a misused of Point of Order in the House. He said that Point of Order is an insertion by a member to correct a major error that has just been made, but that was not the case in the House. He gave an example of him making a speech and suddenly a member stood up and called for Point of Order, and then made a speech himself. He suggested for members to use Point of Order wisely.
Chairman ... thanked the Minister of Police and stressed the importance for the House to have good debate but in an orderly fashion.
Minister of Justice ... made a number of literal amendments to the Guardianship Bill that was before the Committee.
Minister of Labour ... also made some spelling corrections.
Chairman ... called for votes on the Bill and it was passed 20-0. He said for the committee to proceed on to the Bill for an Act to amend the Tobacco Act 2004.
Noble Tu'ivakano ... reminded the Chairman of a request by the Deputy Prime Minister to postponed the debate on the Tobacco Bill to the afternoon, and for the committee to continue with Extra Ordinary Gazette No. 19, about the Public Service.
Chairman ... called for proceedings to continue with the Regulation on the Punishment of Public Servants 2003. He said that they left off at Clause 8, page 99.
Minister of Justice ... said that under Clause 8 any complaint big or small about a Head of Department should be made to the Secretary of the Public Service Commission, and the Commission would then address the complaint.
He also said that if it was a big complaint, the first thing the Commission would do was to suspend the HOD, while investigation and work was carried out on the complaint.
Governor of Ha'apai ... wanted to know what would should be done with complaints made about public servants in the outer islands. He said that under the regulation, complaints were to be made to the secretary and decisions were to be made by the commission, and if the decision was for the Secretary to scold the public servant, he wanted to know if in his case he had to send over the public servant from Ha'apai to Nuku'alofa to be scolded by the Secretary.
Minister of Justice ... said that under the Regulation what the Governor had described appeared to be the procedure, but under the Principal Act he said that the Commission could delegate its authority to someone in Ha'apai to implement its decision.
'Uliti Uata ... said that the HOD should be allocated some authority to suspend a public servant if he or she was found to have done something wrong. He felt that the procedure for complaint would take too long, meanwhile the offender because he was still working could do a lot of damage.
Minister of Police ... said that the member had a good point. He said that in the past the decision on complaints was left for the Cabinet, but under the new regulation the Commission was responsible, but he said that there was still dissatisfaction over the process of suspending a public servant while an investigation was carried out. When the findings of the investigation was finally revealed that the suspended person was innocent, the fact that he was suspended had already damaged his or her reputation. He said that there was dissatisfaction over the process.
'Uliti Uata ... said that the Heads of Departments would not be able to get their staff to work efficiently because they lacked the authority to discipline their staff.
Fineasi Funaki ... wanted to know if it was possible for an offender to be punished twice, by the court and also by the Commission.
Minister of Justice ... said that it was possible because if a crime was committed it had to be dealt with by the Police, while at the same time the commission could also pass a decision on offence relating to administrative matters.
Nuku ... called for the empowerment of the Heads of Departments in order for them to be able to do their jobs.
Chairman ... asked for some clarification with regards to the outer islands because there was nothing in the regulation about the authority of the governor over public servants in their jurisdiction.
Minister of Justice ... said that in the past authority over public servants was with the Cabinet, but under the principal act the authority was with the Public Service Commission and the commission could allocate its authority to some one else.
Noble Nuku ... said that the commission may be able to delegate its authority but if the civil servants that the heads of departments did not have the authority they would not be diligent in their work.
Minister of Justice ... pointed out that a Head of Department has the authority to pass a decision under Clause 4 on a small complaint.
'Uliti Uata ... said that it would be unprecedented for the commission to delegate authority to the governors, who were members of the Cabinet. He moved for the regulation to be returned to government to be amended to address the problems that they had pointed out.
Minister of Justice ... said that the delegation of authority did not have to be given to the governor, it could be given to his secretary and the government representatives at 'Eua and the Niuas.
Thursday, after lunch was question time.
Sunia Fili ... wanted to know what government was going to do about the domestic air service between Tongatapu, Niuafo'ou, Niuatoputapu and 'Eua which ceased in February.
Deputy Prime Minister ... said that the Ministry could not force the two domestic air operators to fly to the Niuas and 'Eua, but there was a new policy yet to be approved by Cabinet, which would give the Ministry the authority to force the two operators to fly to the Niuas and 'Eua.
Speaker ... told the House that a third airline, Kingdom Air with a working capital of between $48-$50 million had applied for a licence to fly the domestic service and was still waiting. It had offered to bring in a 9-seater aircraft to service the Niuas and 'Eua. He said that he was told that their application had been held up by the Ministry of Civil Aviation.
Sunia Fili ... wanted to know when the public servants were going to get their new pay rise. He said that the Public Servants appreciated their bi-weekly pay and the 5% rise but they were waiting for their new pay rise.
Minister of Finance ... said that a salary review committee has been working on the proposed wage rise since June, and they had completed their work. Their recommendation would be forwarded to government which would then set the percentage of the rise based on what it could finance. He said that by December government would be able to state the percentage rate of the rise.
Sunia Fili ... wanted to know from the Minister of Works when would he be able to tar seal the roads of these villages at 'Eua, 'Ohonua, Ha'atu'a and Mata'aho.
Minister of Works ... said that the tar sealing of roads at 'Eua would start in September.
'Isileli Pulu ... wanted to hear from the Minister of Police why two prisoners who escaped the security prison at Hu'atolitoli in 2003 were found not guilty by the Supreme Court.
Minister of Police ... said that first of all he would like to point out clause 50 sub-clause II of their Rules of Proceeding which said that it was not allowed for a member to ask a minister for legal advice.
He said that the prisoners were found guilty then they made a submission and the case was opened for a second hearing, and they were found guilty again, then they appealed to the Supreme Court where their case was dismissed. He said that if he commented on the decision of the Supreme Court he would advising the member but he was not allowed to do so by their Rules and Regulations.
'Isileli Pulu ... he asked the Minister of Justice, if any legal action had been taken against Tonic Corporation, the company which administers Tonga's dot to internet address. He said that the Corporation had been accused of allowing its .to address to be used by pornographic web sites, which he said was infringing on Clause 78, sub-clause (1.a) of the Communication Act 2000.
Minister of Justice ... said that he first heard of the matter when the Member sent his question, but he said that since then the matter was under investigation. He said that because the member seemed to think that a crime had been committed, it was important that there was proof. He wondered if the member could help by telling him when and what he had seen on the internet.
'Isileli Pulu ... he said that he had not seen anything, and that his question was based on reports he received from other people.
The Legislature dissolved into the Whole House Committee and the Acting Chairman, Noble Tu'i'afitu took his Chair.
'Uliti Uata ... supported the motion by Noble Nuku for the regulation to be withdrawn to be amended, giving HOD some authority.
Minister of Justice ... moved for the proceeding to continue but he would take the clause which concerned the members back to the Commission for possible amendment.
Trevor Guttenbeil ... wanted further clarification on the motion because he said there were two separate issues, the power to make decision, and the power to implement decision. He wanted the motion to be specific on what they wanted to give to the HOD.
Minister of Police ... pointed out that if they wanted to amend the Regulation they have to go back and amend the Principal Act.
Governor of Ha'apai ... expressed his concern on the fact that the administration of the public service has been centralised in Nuku'alofa under the new Regulation. He pointed out that under the new regulation the two governors would have no power over the public servants. He referred to minor corrections that he used to make such as getting them to be at work on time, and not to misuse government vehicles. He said that if the authority would be centralised in Nuku'alofa he could see that there would be problems.
'Isileli Pulu ... pointed out that the Prime Minister chairs the Civil Service Commission and was also chair of the Cabinet, and three members of the commission are Cabinet Ministers.
Deputy Prime Minister ... reminded the House that they were in the process of reform and things are in transition, he said that it was like a procession, a funeral procession, and would change later.
Speaker ... moved for the amendment to be made soon, because it was in doubt if the funeral procession would ever get to the burial ground.
Minister of Justice ... said that under the regulation an appeal against a decision of the Commission must be made to the Cabinet, but if the House wanted to change the regulation for the Appeal to be made to another body then they would have to amend the Principal Act.
Speaker ... said that the problem was because of a conflict of interest. The members of the commission were cabinet ministers who would also be in Cabinet.
Minister of Justice ... said that they may be Cabinet ministers but while in the Commission they were doing a different job from when they were in Cabinet. On the other hand a public servant could also complain to the Commission of Public Relations.
'Isileli Pulu ... wanted to know if anyone could complain to the Commission of Public Relation over a Cabinet decision.
Minister of Justice ... said that it could be done.
Chairman ... called for vote on the Bill for the Public Service Act 2002 and the Regulation for the administration of the Public Service 2003. It was passed 17-1. Against was 'Uliti Uata.
The Whole House Committee was dissolved into Legislature and the Speaker took his Chair.
Speaker ... call for vote on the second reading of the Bill for the Guardianship of Children Act. It was passed 17-0.
It also had its third reading and it was passed 17-0.
Speaker ... called for the second and the third reading of the Public Service Act 2002 and the Regulation for the Administration of the Public Service 2003. It was carried both times 15-0.